July 31, 2005

Giving land for nothing

In a nutshell, this is why giving land for "peace" (try to see the sarcasm in that word) will never be of use to Israelis. And yes I know I'm a European girl expressing my opinions, but lets face it.. It's not very complicated. So wake up and smell the coffee, leftists!

Part of article:

What is the definition of ‘all of Palestine’ for which the struggle will be continued?
“That means all the area occupied according to law, and we will continue to fight over it. And it means that we won’t give the IDF and the settlers who are escaping from Gaza to the West Bank to abuse our people there. Palestinian blood is one and therefore we are ready to continue the struggle. For this reasons we have already set up the units who work to smuggle the necessary knowledge for fighting techniques, especially to do with the missiles, from Gaza to the West Bank.

Hold on, missiles in the West Bank is a very dangerous thing. Would an (IDF) operation in Qalqilia cause missiles to fall on the Sharon area (central Israel) or on Tel Aviv?

“In principle, yes. But I am not saying that we will fire these missiles left right and center. These missiles will be activated in proportion to Israeli activity. A small Israeli operation here and there will not tempt us to use the missiles, but a major assassination, or big infiltration into a city like Jenin, would force us to act. But as always, we won’t initiate, we will only respond to Israeli activities.”

Posted by Maria at July 31, 2005 03:56 PM | TrackBacks
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Well, its true that we are going to suffer more
after the Hitnatkut, but it dose not mean we need to stay there.

tacticly, its easier to to protect Israel with a well defined border like we have with the rest of our neigbours, and I dont want to see more soldiers go to these shithole places in gaza strip and die for nothing.

After the Hitnatkut every terror attack from one place could give the army the chance to work from outside, and go in if needed, into a short
oporation, and not stay in gaza for a month for nothing.
believe me, the hitnatkut might be bad,
but with no hitnatkut is going to be worse.

Posted by: Assaf at July 31, 2005 05:34 PM Permalink

OK, but why does your title offend all Arabs? The intreviewer, Ali Waked, for example, is an Arab too. Perhaps a better title would be "To persuade a leftist".

By leftists I refer to people who support any "X for Y" deal no matter what. I believe all leftists know of the existence of Abu Abir and his such. They just think that giving the PA enough money and power will somehow eliminate this problem.

Assaf, I have to say that I don't understand your logic.

"After the Hitnatkut every terror attack from one place could give the army the chance to work from outside, and go in if needed, into a short oporation, and not stay in gaza for a month for nothing."

Well, the army is now able to work from inside or outside, for a long operation or a short operation. What tactical adventage will the disengagement bring? You are saying that the army will only be able to act AFTER a terror attack!! You call terror attack "a chance"!!

Of course I don't want to see soldiers dying in Gaza, but I don't understand why dying now is "for nothing", whether dying after the disengagement is not for nothing.

Posted by: Orly at July 31, 2005 06:15 PM Permalink

No sorry, I need to explain my self better,
The thing with the Qassam rockets for example, is not the issue in the Hitnatkut, since they would try to move the rockets to a location which they can later attack TLV anywyas.
So hitnatkut or not Qassam rockets yes anywyas.

Now to the army point of view.
In Gaza there are one of our four you know who Infantry units in any given time, they must stay
there in order to protect the setlers, and trust me, when you dont sleep so much and do reptetive tasks you loose your self in a dengarous state of mind.
The problem is that Gaza is not just Gaza,
our army is way over it's head with things to do
and it is colapsing under it's own duties.

Palestinian terror would exist eithr way I think we both know that, the best tactical thing is
(and naturally not wait for a terror attack and then operate, but operate all the time)
When the army can direct all its man power against terror, instad of protect some 100 people in the middle of nowhere.

I was in kfar darom 4 monthes (not just there)
we were more soldiers than setleres,
(that is the case in most of the places)
for what orly? tell me please why do the soldiers have to go there, make the fronline over there? I dont buy that excuse!
I heard enough paople say that if we go, the front line would be TLV and Jerusalm,
Yes, BUT it would be so anyways, they would do
thier worst anyways, if we have more soldiers to act against terroirts and let infantrey do the job they are trained and WANT to do
it is not waiting for an attack it is operating
in a clean way like our army should.

I can go on orly and tell you many more tactical
things that our army use now and will use from out side. but not now.

Just think about it, as we speak
Nachal Golany Tsanchanim and Givaty, are all,
or some staying some where in the territories
protecting settlers you know how many soldiers is that? ALLOT
Hevron, about a 1000 soldiers for 100 setllers,
plus tanks, artilary, airforce, enginering sepourt, for what? 100 people? this is way to much.

When there is a fance you have patrols and so on,
and our infantry soldiers can have the time to train for spesific operations and do them with out later go back to Kfar Darom and not sleep for another 2 weeks!!!
They can train them selfs and do the operations with out going imidiatlly after the opertaion back to the checkpoint for another 8 hours
and be tired and make mistakes!!!
For some reason I dont think many Israelis know
what are our soldiers really go throuh over there
no one deserve it, poor them come back home peacfully and do your job like pro's.

Posted by: Assaf at July 31, 2005 06:49 PM Permalink

Oh, by the way orly, I am no leftie or right winger, these terms are long dead in our country,
I dont want to talk with the palestinians,
nither I want to talk with people that have hate
in their hearts no matter for whom.

So I hope that just because I am pro the fance and Hitnatkut you see no reason in listen to what I have to say, because, the way our army
is working now from inside is a waste of human life and time, even if you are hard core settler,
and to all you "jews" out there

real jews dont put land over human life.

Posted by: assaf at July 31, 2005 06:59 PM Permalink

"real jews dont put land over human life.

Ehrm Assaf excuse me, but who made you a bet din all of a sudden??

Orly: Point taken with the Arab title. I'm changing it.

Posted by: Maria at July 31, 2005 08:23 PM Permalink

no body made made me a Bet-Din,
I am wondering more, who made a Bet-din of all the jews (especialy in the diaspora)
who say all the time:
"a jew don't evacuate a jew"
willing that they risk the lives of kids,
man, women and soldiers just for an aker
of land for their chip vegtables plantaions,
no taxes, housing benafits...

If somebody want to live there, be my guest,
dont do it on the expance of a whole country.
and later on COMPLAIN that IDF is not protecting

I am sorry Maria but most (not all) of the settlers have nothing to do with idology,
and that is a fact,
as hard as it may be for you to hear.

and for me, it is not being jewish, even if I am no Bet-Din and I am just a stupid israeli boy.

Beside I remeber a girl who once told me,
"I have a right for my own opinions"

Posted by: Assaf at July 31, 2005 08:43 PM Permalink

Hey Assaf take a chill pill! I meant no harm, I was just asking. I find hearing your opinions (being a different view) interesting. But don't be sensitive if you get criticism.

And yes we both have a right to our opinion.

Posted by: Maria at July 31, 2005 09:05 PM Permalink

Assaf, did you just call me a hardcore settler? LOL :-D I'm neither hardcore nor a settler. And I support the security fence. And I have many friends who do miluim. And yes, I support removal of illegal outposts and isolated settlements. But this is NOT what the Disengagement is about.

In the Disengagement, ALL army presence and ALL settlements are removed. And last time I heard, it will include handing the Philadelphi road to the Egyptians!!! How is it got to do with a tactic way to save soldiers life??

The Disengagement is a much larger move than this and it is done under international eye. It is allegedly supposed to remove international pressure from Israel to the PA, but will it really do so?? We all seem to agree that the PA won't solve terror. How do you think will the international community react if the IDF operates in Gaza after the Disengagement? Israel will probably be accused of derailing the peace process.

So I'm REALLY AFRAID we'll be left with nothing - No tactical advantage, No international support, and NO peace!!! But, hey, the stock markets are rising!!!

Let me just remind you that the Disengagment was conceived when Arafat was alive, and the idea was that he wasn't a partner for peace. Now if Abu Mazen is a partner for peace, why don't we negosiate with him so as to reach an agreement, instead of do what is perceived by every Palestinian as a victory of the terrorists?

On the other hand, if Abu Mazen is not a partner for peace, then surely we can't trust him to control the terrorists after the Disengagement. But look what is happenning: Condoleezza Rice now asks to give the PA more weapons "to secure a peaceful Disengagement." Such things happen and will continue to happen because Sharon displayed the Disengagement to the world as a major step coinciding with the Road Map, NOT as a tactical move as he displayed it in Israel (though he hardly displayed it in Israel).

Posted by: Orly at August 1, 2005 10:37 AM Permalink

Maria, I'm just curious, it's a COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL question: Could there be a situation in which you will support giving land? Is there a religious factor in your point of view?

By "religious" I mean something like: God has promised the Land of Israel to the People of Israel and thus it is forbidden to give it away. Saying that the Land of Israel is the birthplace of the Jewish People and a crucial thing in Jewish life is not a religious argument.

Posted by: Orly at August 1, 2005 10:42 AM Permalink

Well orly you are right, more or less.
but as long as the army
is doing the job of police they are wasting money
and manpower for nothing.

Soldiers dont have to be in checkpoints inside
the territories, nither they have to gurd houses of settelers in settelments.

When a soldier is doing 8 hours checkpoint then go back to the base next to settelment then sleep for 4 hours in avarage, then gurd a post in the settelments for another 8 hours then sleep again the avarage time that he have
and then he have to go to a raid to catch a terrorist some where next to sttelment because
he is in the "kitat konenut".
That is to much to do for our soldiers, not mention that allot of them loose the moral of doing the job they should after doing this for a month in row with out seeing home.

The palestinians on the other hand have a very high moral because it is in their homes,
imagen Haifa with houndreds of palestinians
"soldiers" and tanks and so on...
you would have much more moral do defand your place, and unfourtunat as it is, our soldiers
in the territories allot of the time fail to see the conection between security and checkpoint or
a settelment, as did I faild to see whene I served in the army, it is no secret that most
sadir soldiers that did combat service start to think twice if what we are doing is the right thing security wise, both left and right wingers.

Look around the borders of your country,
Fances with roads, mind fields, patrols...
It should be no diefferent here.
where the army is dealing with 100% security issues and not drive with settlers in and out of
the gaza strip and so on.

How can I know it will be better? well no body can orly, but tell me honestlly, do you really want to keep the territories?
Hey I know who are the palestinians historicly, and that they have no claim over this land,
But is it matter by now? they have no place to go
we have no plave to go, our bigest mistakes was in 67 when we took those territories and made them "part of israel" we fucked up,
and if you ask me it's better late then never.

We will continue to operate from out side with out caring less about international (because we never realy did care) presure and we would go out of the parts of the territories according to what is best for our security, and not so we would make america happy.

about Philadelphi road,
you have Lebanon in the north where Hizballa is siting, they allso want to demolish our country,
they allso want to give the palestinians weapons
they get from Iran, and yet there is a fence that we patrol, electric sensors, Shvil tistush,
Army posts along the fence, emergency troops,
air force in stand by, artilary seppourt, tanks,
and they do their job well done.
Shin beit and mosad go in from time to time
to get info and catch terrorists,
So Philadelphi would be the same.

But, no settlers to diturb in the job,
no aditional jobs made possible by settlers,
no stupid checkpints that acomplish nothig!

Posted by: Assaf at August 1, 2005 01:55 PM Permalink

Oh last thing about arafat and a peace partner,
Why you think Abu mazen is a partner?
He have the power of a cat in heat, nada.
So I dont care about this eithr, all I care about
is to secure our borders the way all our borders are for the past 60 years.
and international preasure and peace partners
dont fall into my thinking methods since october

Posted by: assaf at August 1, 2005 02:02 PM Permalink

Dear Assaf, I'm afraid I'll have to cut this dialogue with you. I feel for you for the things that bother you, but I feel this dialogue is not going anywhere. I say things, you ignore them and move to other issues, and on top of all, you keep raising baseless assumptions on who I am and what I think.

Perhaps you should consider creating your own blog as you seem to have very much to write about.


Posted by: Orly at August 1, 2005 02:30 PM Permalink

: )

ok, I understand,
Have a nice day.

Posted by: assaf at August 1, 2005 02:50 PM Permalink

I am sorry Orly last thing really.

you worte:

"Assaf, did you just call me a hardcore settler? LOL :-D I'm neither hardcore nor a settler. And I support the security fence. And I have many friends who do miluim. And yes, I support removal of illegal outposts and isolated settlements. But this is NOT what the Disengagement is about."

First I did not call you a stttler, it was generaly speaking, so dont worry.

Second, I must understand, you are pro the fence
yet you dont want to take all the army and settelments out?
so what, you want them to be behind the fence and they would pass through gates and so on?
so what have you done by that?

Posted by: assaf at August 1, 2005 04:17 PM Permalink

Hello Assaf

Did you read my two pro-disengagement posts?



Have a look!

Posted by: Kantor at August 1, 2005 09:45 PM Permalink

I wonder if what the US government supports (I'm an American) is designed to appeal to a population in this country that is largely ignorant of the details of the entire "Israeli-Palestinian Crisis". Most people I know, and I used to be one of them, really don't understand it at all and feel frightened to even try because they see it as so complex and so many people are so passionate about it coming from both sides.

To complicate matters, although I'm no historian, it seems to me that US liberals in this country used to have a distinct pro-Jew agenda (which is great with me) and somehow Jews/Israelis lost that status with liberals. I fear this is a simple case of choosing what liberals see as an even more oppressed minority (which is totally loopy) over a somewhat oppressed minority. Plus your average liberal has a difficult time with what is perceived of as a Hawkish approach taken by the Israeli govt. (I don't.)

So, my point is this: somehow compelling Israel to give up land to seem like we are really not such Jew-lovers to Muslim Arabs in the ME and to make it simple for a lazy American public who isn't so concerned about one tiny country in the ME called Israel (even though we should be) doesn't make it a smart move for the Israelis AT ALL.

I don't for one minute think it will appease anyone. I don't think Israel will be safer, in fact maybe even less so. I don't think life will improve one iota for your average "Palestinian". So why the hell give it to them? Condi Rice doesn't have to live in Israel and worry about a rocket landing in her living room. Are anti-Semitic Muslim Arabs actually going to see Israel/Jews any differently now? Pa-leez. Israelis should not let the US govt. USE THEM when it's not to the advantage of the Israelis themselves.

Posted by: Alice at August 1, 2005 10:16 PM Permalink

Assaf: I wasn't "worried" because you called me a settler. I don't consider it so be an offence. I didn't like the fact that you tried to guess my views on several things and then responded to what you guessed. However perhaps of these cases were misunderstandings.

Anyway, as I said, this discussion is getting longer and longer and I don't wish to continue it.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: Orly at August 2, 2005 10:25 AM Permalink

Alice: Your post was very interesting.

Posted by: Orly at August 2, 2005 10:30 AM Permalink

I agree that Alice's comment was interesting (like so often before). And Alice, mail me!

Orly, I find it amusing to see time and time again that despite how cosmopolitan and educated you clearly are, you have the same direct and honest attitude that Israelis share. (Not that there is a contradiction there, everyone is influenced by their culture).
Tell me, if you were a shop keeper, would you be likely to tell customers things such as "you need a bigger size, here's extra-large for you" (if it were true)? :-)

Posted by: Maria at August 2, 2005 11:31 PM Permalink

:-)) Thank you! I think it's a bit exaggerated to call me "cosmopolitan". Yes, I tend to have a direct attitude like most Israelis, perhaps even more direct than most Israelis. However, when I communicate with non-Israelis I try to be careful, because I'm not sure what their reaction would be. It often turns out I've been extra careful.

Anyway, here I don't feel that I have to be very careful, for some reason. Maybe something about the readers or the AUTHOR of the blog?? ;-)

About your shop keeper question, I have to say it's very difficult, because, actually, I HATE shop keepers in clothes shops!! (Was that direct?) Really I have nothing against shop keepers in general, but when buying clothes they are really pests. Usually they try to convince me to take a SMALLER size than I want. In fact, buying clothes in most shops in Israel is such a SAD issue that I better not get deep into it.

Now, when I try to think of the situation of being a shop keeper, I'm not sure I would be that direct in such situations. It depends. If the customer asks me what size he/she needs, I will tell the truth, but if they insist on buying something which is too small for them... I don't think it's my business. ANYWAY, there are ways of telling someone such things. I think it's not offending when it's done with enough tact (and quietly!!). But, definitely, in Israel it's not always done with tact...

Posted by: Orly at August 3, 2005 10:11 AM Permalink

You're right, there is no need to be careful here!
As far the Israeli shop owners (if you don't mind me saying so), I am quite certain that if they tell you to get a smaller size, it is simply because you like to buy clothes that are too big! I am not saying that they tell everyone they're fat. I am saying that they are very honest & direct. They don't tell me I'm fat, because I'm not. But they'd tell me if I needed a bigger size (without being asked) without hesitating. Here a store worker would never ever do that. They'd allow me to live in denial :)

It is true when you say that Israel is not always done with tact. It is the mentality of straightforwardness & expressing emotions. It can be tough to handle, but in many ways it is actually much better. One can compare it to a mentality that is the exact opposite where this is concerned - the Finnish. It's a pain in the butt to keep up a conversation with a Finn sometimes because they're always so afraid of saying something wrong. I could write an entire essay about this, but I've gotta go :-)

Posted by: Maria at August 4, 2005 11:04 AM Permalink

No, they don't tell me to get a small size because I like big clothes. They tell me to get a small size because they somehow have to get rid of the stock of anorectic/slutty clothes they have. Believe me, when I was shopping in the US all the clothes were so big for me that I had to buy children's clothes!! In Israel it's often the case that if I don't want to look like an old/religious lady, my only choice is clothes for an anorectic 16 years old. I can say that the situation now is much better than used to be a few years ago, but still it's not easy.

On top of that, the clothes sizes are often meaningless, the place where you try your clothes on usually have neither a mirror nor a lock.

As for the shopkeepers, now when I think of it, MOST of them are OK, but those who are not OK stay in the memory much longer. It's true that Israelis are in general straightforward and don't value privacy and personal space as much as Europeans do, but many shopkeepers take these characters to the extreme.

Alright, I think I'm done with my essay.

Tomorrow I'm meeting Torbjorn, aka Yehoshua. I'll tell him you dreamed of him!

Posted by: Orly at August 4, 2005 12:08 PM Permalink

Tell him I said hi!

Posted by: Maria at August 4, 2005 12:45 PM Permalink

Sure. :-)

Posted by: Orly at August 4, 2005 01:15 PM Permalink


I was googling for content to put on my new
site (www.SaveIsraelNow.us -under construction),
and google showed me your blog. I just came
from the rally at the UN.

Here's something you have to add...
(I have not heard from trusted sources yet today)



From: R. K.
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:37 PM
Subject: Fw: Report From Gush Katif

This news is as of 11:30 this morning, Israel Summer Time. The
situation in Neve Dekalim may have changed since then.

----- Original Message -----
From: jg
To: Y E
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:31 PM
Subject: FW: Report From Gush Katif

FYI, Yassam is the name of the SWAT teams. This is too great! I am so
proud of our people.


-----Original Message-----
From: A Y
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:19 PM
To: Dvar Emet
Subject: Report From Gush Katif
Importance: High

Shalom everyone - and Baruch Hashem! In Neve Dekalim, at least, the spirits of the Gush Katif residents are running high as they are witnessing Hashem melt the hearts of IDF soldiers and Yassam police units.

Shortly before 10am this morning, my friend Chaya called me to allow me to share in what was happening. Through the receiver of the phone
I heard voices in song, "Am Yisrael Chai". Chaya described what was taking place. The residents had broken through the fence and had managed to surround the IDF soldiers with circles of singing and dancing people, a Sefer Torah leading the procession, the men garbed in Tefillin and Talliot. As they danced and sang, they locked eyes with the soldiers, some of the residents speaking to them in low tones, "You don't have to do this". What they soon witnessed were the faces of IDF soldiers wet with tears. Grouped in buddy teams, the partner of each teary eyed soldier would grab them and demand that they look their partner squarely in the eyes, but the defensive
routine they had practiced seem to be failing this morning - to the jubilant cries, prayers and praises of the Neve Dekalim residents.

Half an hour ago, I called my friend Miriam, also in Neve Dekalim. "What's going on?", I asked. Miriam was on a spiritual high that I could discern clear through the phone. A massage
therapist, she had been returning home from treating one of the community women, when the loud speaker in the community came to life and requested all residents to go to a certain location in the village. A passenger in a resident's car, Miriam was delighted when
they obeyed the call. Arriving at the location, their eyes were greeted with a sea of black-garbed Yassam policemen - an unearthly
spectacle. The Neve Dekalim residents linked arms, trying, as Miriam put it, to muster some show of "force". They formed a line inside the security fence which had by then been cut open in several places. They locked eyes with the policemen on the other side and prayed. To their utter astonishment, tears began to glisten on the
rock solid faces of the hardened Yassam policemen. One after another, Hashem began to melt the hearts of the Pharaohs. Soon, the residents began to make their way through the openings in the security and began to mingle amongst the human sea of black uniforms, bands of orange weaving their way like foam atop shore
bound waves - a tide of emunah and bitachon making its way towards the shore. Suddenly, the Yassam police unit did an about face and headed for their buses, leaving the area.

Baruch Hashem. Am Yisrael Chai.

Posted by: Seth at August 16, 2005 09:53 PM Permalink